I did notice that most of the guilds on proudmoore that are 8/13 heroic get Iskar and then Socrethar (not actually Zakuun). I do think we are getting close on Zakuun but if we hit a wall we might want to tackle this guy next.
We seem fairly close on Socrethar after just one night. Heroic hasn't changed him as much as Zakuun. Biggest thing appears to be getting the transition back to Construct phase down. To help that, we're going to set up "Slam soaking" groups. Everyone soaking it isn't a big deal the first time, but when we've got adds to clean up and Gift debuffs still to deal with, healing is substantially more intense.
The plan will be 2-3 groups of two people, mostly melee. First group stands with the tank, gets debuffed and moves out. Second group moves in and takes the second Slam. For the third Slam, the tank will take it himself. The damage itself of the Slam doesn't need to be split, just the debuffs. So it doesn't matter how many stacks the tank has after 3 Slams because we tank swap at that point.
I'm unsure of the exact timing of the debuff dropping and the Slam casts. If the debuff falls fast enough, group one can go in for the first Slam with each tank. If not, we'll need a 3rd group. Melee will be preferable for these groups so ranged can take care of ghost adds. Ranged will also end up with the Gift debuff and won't be able to take a Slam. Hobugz might not be a Gift target, Monks sometimes are counted as melee, so he is a good group option. Hunters might work too, depends on how Deterrence interacts with the Slam and the Debuff. We'll have to test that! Otherwise we may need to adjust a bit on the fly.
We get those phase changes under control and Socrethar will fall. Thursday after Gorefiend sounds like a good idea!
From my perspective - biggest problem was ghosts and ppl running chaotically from them all around.
Here is a good showcase on how to do this.
Thing to look at - positioning in p1 and p2.
Stacking on boss in p2 makes killing of ghosts much easier. Basically ghosts are not a problem in this group at all. Also it is easy to align and overlap debuff.
They definitely did NOT have the raid taking Reverberating Blow damage (what I tend to call Slam). The graphic is quite clearly faced away from the majority of the raid. That agrees with my previous post.
It is hard to tell exactly how they were handling the Reverberating Blow debuffs. I'm not sure if melee were moving in or if they were using lots of big tank CDs. The damage would get VERY high very fast. Three debuffs would be a 600% boost. So every third hit would be a 1200% hit. OW. Seems unsustainable. Unless they used more than two tanks. A couple people splitting them sounds much easier.
The video is a very poor angle and not great at showing how they are handling the Spirits and Casters, but I can make some guesses. A Hunter and a Shadow Priest were definitely shooting the Spirits regularly. I'm guessing they did not use the Traps very much, they just killed the Spirits with fire and shadow and bullets. The majority of the raid grouping up would help this, since there really isn't much need to spread out, other than those with the Gift debuff.
They did appear to be bringing the Casters into the melee and blowing them up. Ranged in melee would help with this, since silenced Casters will melee. It was quite clear that Death Knights were Gripping the mobs in, probably after they'd been interrupted once or twice. They would have to run fairly close before casting their first spell anyway.
The shift back to phase 1 came right before the 3rd Dominator spawned. This group was very precise about it. There's no reason we can't do the same. (Sanzaru would probably have to stop casting Avenger's Shield completely, when it's time to let the casts go through.) The first set of Gift debuffs faded right at the Transition. I'm certain that helped the healers out significantly.
The biggest difference I see between them and us is killing the Spirits. They likely had very few alive for the Transition, making it easy to clean the remainder up and avoid any fears. The method they used to kill the Casters is likely a result of that. Moving some ranged to the Spirits means melee need to help with the Casters.
>The video is a very poor angle
Hate you. Holy Pala POV ftw!
I found warcraft logs from their first kill at look a bit more deeply into it.
First things first - their healing output is lower then our healing output even with more players in raid:)
Haha whoops! Let me amend that: The angle doesn't show what is going on with the Spirits and Casters very well. :)
"I'm not sure how they did it. But it is tanks only."
Interesting! Must be some good cooldown usage. I'll see if I can figure it out from the logs. Or I'll make Lair do it. >.>
"Ah well, and hunter, once:)"
HAH! Must be when a Hunter died. I noticed that one!
"In short - Hunter+SP __ONLY__, hunter 2x of what SP did."
Seemed like that from what I COULD see in the video. ;) I'm sure they were using the fire damage too, no reason not too. Marksman Hunters are also very good on the Caster adds, but less needed if we get the adds into melee. We can mess with it.
Checking the logs, I think you meant the Hunter did HALF of the Shadow Priest. All you, Muta!
Looking at their logs, their two tanks appear to be taking only two Slams in a row. The first one doesn't hit very hard because there are no debuffs yet. Tanks probably barely notice that one since the rest of us can take it easily too. It's the second one that is hitting hard, but only with 3 stacks. They're using defensive CDs, but nothing too crazy. Just Shield Wall or Guardian of Ancient Kings, etc. Seems reasonable, one hard hit should be manageable with CDs.
The next tank takes hit #3 and CDs hit #4. First tank was back for hit #5 and the debuffs had worn off by then, apparently, since the hit was small. The Construct "died" at this point and they didn't have a #6. Repeated for the second phase 1. We were looking similar at 5 hits per phase. The times we got back into phase 1, we didn't get out as fast, which isn't surprising.
That certainly seems like something we can do, if the debuff is falling off that fast. The challenge will be the second time killing the Construct since it will likely be slower. Will we have enough CDs? We can look at it.
That was a good experiment, but I think we should go back to handling phase 2 the way we did before. The new method felt like it had too many moving parts. Too many things to go wrong and less damage on the Dominators and Boss.
The phase 1 changes worked quite well. Only needing the tanks in the Slams will help a lot for shifting from phase 2 back to phase 1. When that transition hits, all the ranged should shift to taking out the Spirits. Melee can finish off any Casters left. Tanks will handle the Slams will DPS clean up the adds quickly.
I did notice that most of the guilds on proudmoore that are 8/13 heroic get Iskar and then Socrethar (not actually Zakuun). I do think we are getting close on Zakuun but if we hit a wall we might want to tackle this guy next.
We seem fairly close on Socrethar after just one night. Heroic hasn't changed him as much as Zakuun. Biggest thing appears to be getting the transition back to Construct phase down. To help that, we're going to set up "Slam soaking" groups. Everyone soaking it isn't a big deal the first time, but when we've got adds to clean up and Gift debuffs still to deal with, healing is substantially more intense.
The plan will be 2-3 groups of two people, mostly melee. First group stands with the tank, gets debuffed and moves out. Second group moves in and takes the second Slam. For the third Slam, the tank will take it himself. The damage itself of the Slam doesn't need to be split, just the debuffs. So it doesn't matter how many stacks the tank has after 3 Slams because we tank swap at that point.
I'm unsure of the exact timing of the debuff dropping and the Slam casts. If the debuff falls fast enough, group one can go in for the first Slam with each tank. If not, we'll need a 3rd group. Melee will be preferable for these groups so ranged can take care of ghost adds. Ranged will also end up with the Gift debuff and won't be able to take a Slam. Hobugz might not be a Gift target, Monks sometimes are counted as melee, so he is a good group option. Hunters might work too, depends on how Deterrence interacts with the Slam and the Debuff. We'll have to test that! Otherwise we may need to adjust a bit on the fly.
We get those phase changes under control and Socrethar will fall. Thursday after Gorefiend sounds like a good idea!
For Science!
From my perspective - biggest problem was ghosts and ppl running chaotically from them all around.
Here is a good showcase on how to do this.
Thing to look at - positioning in p1 and p2.
Stacking on boss in p2 makes killing of ghosts much easier. Basically ghosts are not a problem in this group at all. Also it is easy to align and overlap debuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZwFC0jhEqo
P.S. did boss hit hard at p2? Since I remove beacon from tank and don't have time to heal tank like at all.
Ok thoughts from that video:
They definitely did NOT have the raid taking Reverberating Blow damage (what I tend to call Slam). The graphic is quite clearly faced away from the majority of the raid. That agrees with my previous post.
It is hard to tell exactly how they were handling the Reverberating Blow debuffs. I'm not sure if melee were moving in or if they were using lots of big tank CDs. The damage would get VERY high very fast. Three debuffs would be a 600% boost. So every third hit would be a 1200% hit. OW. Seems unsustainable. Unless they used more than two tanks. A couple people splitting them sounds much easier.
The video is a very poor angle and not great at showing how they are handling the Spirits and Casters, but I can make some guesses. A Hunter and a Shadow Priest were definitely shooting the Spirits regularly. I'm guessing they did not use the Traps very much, they just killed the Spirits with fire and shadow and bullets. The majority of the raid grouping up would help this, since there really isn't much need to spread out, other than those with the Gift debuff.
They did appear to be bringing the Casters into the melee and blowing them up. Ranged in melee would help with this, since silenced Casters will melee. It was quite clear that Death Knights were Gripping the mobs in, probably after they'd been interrupted once or twice. They would have to run fairly close before casting their first spell anyway.
The shift back to phase 1 came right before the 3rd Dominator spawned. This group was very precise about it. There's no reason we can't do the same. (Sanzaru would probably have to stop casting Avenger's Shield completely, when it's time to let the casts go through.) The first set of Gift debuffs faded right at the Transition. I'm certain that helped the healers out significantly.
The biggest difference I see between them and us is killing the Spirits. They likely had very few alive for the Transition, making it easy to clean the remainder up and avoid any fears. The method they used to kill the Casters is likely a result of that. Moving some ranged to the Spirits means melee need to help with the Casters.
I'm fine with trying that out, seems doable.
For Science!
>The video is a very poor angle
Hate you. Holy Pala POV ftw!
I found warcraft logs from their first kill at look a bit more deeply into it.
First things first - their healing output is lower then our healing output even with more players in raid:)
>It is hard to tell exactly how they were handling the Reverberating Blow debuffs.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8c3w6hzCFAHKLVyT#type=damage-taken&...
+
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8c3w6hzCFAHKLVyT#type=auras&spells=...
Well...
I'm not sure how they did it. But it is tanks only. Ah well, and hunter, once:)
>A Hunter and a Shadow Priest were definitely shooting the Spirits
Damage to ghosts for first kill for that guild:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8c3w6hzCFAHKLVyT#type=damage-done&t...
In short - Hunter+SP __ONLY__, hunter 2x of what SP did.
Their SP was standing between the ghosts portal and Socrethar AoEing the ghosts as they came out. I can definitely do this :D
"Hate you. Holy Pala POV ftw!"
Haha whoops! Let me amend that: The angle doesn't show what is going on with the Spirits and Casters very well. :)
"I'm not sure how they did it. But it is tanks only."
Interesting! Must be some good cooldown usage. I'll see if I can figure it out from the logs. Or I'll make Lair do it. >.>
"Ah well, and hunter, once:)"
HAH! Must be when a Hunter died. I noticed that one!
"In short - Hunter+SP __ONLY__, hunter 2x of what SP did."
Seemed like that from what I COULD see in the video. ;) I'm sure they were using the fire damage too, no reason not too. Marksman Hunters are also very good on the Caster adds, but less needed if we get the adds into melee. We can mess with it.
Checking the logs, I think you meant the Hunter did HALF of the Shadow Priest. All you, Muta!
Definitely worth trying out!
For Science!
Looking at their logs, their two tanks appear to be taking only two Slams in a row. The first one doesn't hit very hard because there are no debuffs yet. Tanks probably barely notice that one since the rest of us can take it easily too. It's the second one that is hitting hard, but only with 3 stacks. They're using defensive CDs, but nothing too crazy. Just Shield Wall or Guardian of Ancient Kings, etc. Seems reasonable, one hard hit should be manageable with CDs.
The next tank takes hit #3 and CDs hit #4. First tank was back for hit #5 and the debuffs had worn off by then, apparently, since the hit was small. The Construct "died" at this point and they didn't have a #6. Repeated for the second phase 1. We were looking similar at 5 hits per phase. The times we got back into phase 1, we didn't get out as fast, which isn't surprising.
That certainly seems like something we can do, if the debuff is falling off that fast. The challenge will be the second time killing the Construct since it will likely be slower. Will we have enough CDs? We can look at it.
For Science!
That was a good experiment, but I think we should go back to handling phase 2 the way we did before. The new method felt like it had too many moving parts. Too many things to go wrong and less damage on the Dominators and Boss.
The phase 1 changes worked quite well. Only needing the tanks in the Slams will help a lot for shifting from phase 2 back to phase 1. When that transition hits, all the ranged should shift to taking out the Spirits. Melee can finish off any Casters left. Tanks will handle the Slams will DPS clean up the adds quickly.
For Science!